I have an LG MODEL # LFXS30796S purchased in Jan 2019. I too, bought a Kenmore Elite (really LG ) Trio refrigerator, with bottom freezer, in April 2015. We went out and purchased a new refrigerator. And you dont have to replace the refrigerator. 3M Dental Crowns. going to cost you $20 in fuel. Oder coming from my refrigerator. (Must Read), Tappan Dishwasher Problems: 7 Common Issues (Must Know), GE Portable Airconditioner Not Cooling (With Solutions), Frigidaire Portable Airconditioner Not Cooling (With Solutions), Danby Portable Airconditioner Not Cooling (With Solutions), LG Portable Airconditioner Not Cooling (With Solutions). We were NEVER given a recall notice by Sears for them to come and correct this dangerous matter that they knew about. How is this company allowed to stay in business? A malfunctioning fridge is the most frustrating thing ever. Sears should be held responsible for all costs to repair this fridge. We will never buy from LG or Kenmore! Set up the system and said there is no pressure. Now that I am reading about what others have gone through I am beyond angry that sears allowed any of them to be sold and are still selling them. I know this model is a LG and ai can promise you I will NEVER purchase a LG again. This is because to braze them is delicate and if it is not done when needed, correction is extremely difficult. I will continue to search for submitting a proper claim. I sincerely believe that I deserve another brand refrigerator and refund for useless repairs due to a defect in this model compressor by LG. We told the agent that it was already diagnosed and we just wanted it fixed. We purchased an LG refrigerator in November, 2018. Something needs to be done. ft. French Door Bottom-Freezer Refrigerator October 11, 2014 less than 5 years ago about two weeks ago my freezer stop working. The refrigerators have the side-by-side upper doors and a freezer drawer at the bottom of the refrigerator. One of the ice makers components may be defective. By August 2020 developed a noise. That would be LG. @oldturkey03. VW/Bosch Emissions. Their expensive appliances are failing after just two to three years. Sears will said they would not honor replacement cost of compressor because Sears service tech did not repair. He said, "It's out of Freon, they all so that" He proceeded to tell my husband that it's and LG product and a piece of crap. Wife and I are in our 70s and can not function without fridge so called independent contractor to fix. The unit was made by LG for Kenmore. Meantime we are living out of a camping cooler and replacing the ice every day. I spent 3 hours on the phone getting bounced between Kenmore, Sears and LG and my call "dropped" four different times. My husband can't fix it. Purchased a kenmore 69312 12/14/2017 compressor went out 5/11 the warranty replaced it 3 months later I need another compressor the warranty company gave me six appointments to repair the refrigerator they all been no call no shows 2 months my 78 year old father has been without a refrigerator please put me on the list. On 1/4/2015 we purchased a Kenmore Elite bottom freezer refrigerator. Compressor went out. He did say that I have a lemon, and that Sears won't do anything about it. stop producing cold. This is especially needed if there was a recent power surge or outage. Purchased a Kenmore Elite 72483 refrigerator in October 2015. But if they turn well, check the continuity of the motor with a multimeter. Bought a new French Door Kenmore fridge in 2018 from Sears and the compressor failed in September of 2022. Plug the refrigerator back into the wall outlet. The refrigerator alone was $2400 and now after just over 2 years the compressor is shot. I have a Kenmore French door / bottom freezer - Model 795.72053.110 that we purchased in June of 2011. I called Sears home warranty and they couldn't get to me for 11 days, I bitched loud enough for them to agree to let me hire a third party person if I could get someone sooner and I did. TransUnion Credit Reports. They gave us several repair companies that are authorized to make the repairs. Worst experience ever with customer service!!! We purchased a Kenmore Elite (LG Mfrd) French Door, Freezer on the bottom refrigerator in April 2015, with a 3 year warranty. This is not even 5 years for this unit. Christie Montgomery. Check the functionality of the fan by turning the blades. Do these big companies even care? Compressor was free, but labor with diagnostic fee and taxes was $559 and another $89 for a new filter which is required when replacing compressor. Consumers also can log on to http://us.lge.com for further information on those models included in the repair program and to arrange for an in-home appointment. This refrigerator is 3 yrs old. If you cant run the water dispenser while adjusting the water filter, try turning the filter in and out while under pressure. I call LG tech support and did a smart diagnoses over the phone and they were able to know the refrigerator status. Bought Kenmore Elite refrigerator September 2016. i know Sears wont do anything. Service terrible. According to Amey Park, one of the lawyers representing the plaintiffs, the lawsuit alleged that almost 1.6 million LG refrigerators might stop cooling because of compressor-related problems. If not, are there other class actions to join? There is a class action lawsuit inquiry that everyone needs to sign up for. Now out of warranty and it took 2 weeks for service tech to come out, to say it's now the fan. Unfortunately, they are the only certified techs in our area.seriously?? Purchased Kenmore Elite with LG compressor lasted 2.5 years, someone needs to be held accountable! I am TOTALLY disappointed in Sears. Lights not turning off in my Kenmore Elite Refrigerator model# 79577563600 causing the plastic cover to melt. Compressor went out in under 2 years. Allow the unit to stand for a few minutes without power. Is this covered under the recall? I also have Kenmore Elite fridge with failed compressor and need to know how to get action. From reading all these comments, the compressor is obviously an issue & should be recalled! Bought and installed new from Sears in 5/17. I have a "case manager" that I sent an email to ( no response) and I also sent a text message to which no response. 7/2022 stopped cooling and freezing, completely. Purchased grab-n-go kenmore elite in June 2016 for @ 2000 795-79033.411. Did research and troubleshooting online and most issues are the Linear Inverter Compressor or the PCB. Some of our partners may process your data as a part of their legitimate business interest without asking for consent. Sears should stand by their products, but they won't and even the repair man said he doesn't know why they keep selling these refrigerators because they are bad. My refrigerator was produced in November 2018, purchased in 2019 and the compressor stopped working June 20, 2022. possible issues That Can Cause Kenmore Elite Refrigerator To Stop Cooling: Evaporator Fan Frosted Over Damper Control Malfunction Defrost Thermostat Burnt Compressor Start Relay Failed Compressor Failed Sealed System Freon Leak 1. So, what exactly is the defrost timer? $1100 to fix. This is a $2500+ refrigerator that make it exactly 6 years. Starting with the LG company. We just came back from vacation and discovered the refrigerator was running but not cooling anymore. I have a 32 cubic feet LG and have had all kinds of problems with it (3 door unit) and its conveniently not covered. Please let us know how to proceed based on your experience? Spent $629 for labor on repairs (compressor was under warranty). I purchased an Elite Refrigerator made by LG November, 2017 and it stopped working September 23, 2019. HELP. Is there anyway we can get some money back towards another refrigerator? Disconnect the cord of the refrigerator from the wall outlet and inspect it for any damage. I guess the code it for the freezer a defrost sensor. He was here about 30 minutes told me it was a compressor and it would cost $1458.00 to fix it This is $3000.00 refrigerator.I've only had this refrigerator two and a half years this is ridiculous when I called Lowe's they told me my warranty had run out so I would have to pay for it myself.. They obviously know the problems, yet lie to their customers. Upset & Disgusted!! They will replace the compressor but I am still having to pay $169 for additional parts and $431 for labor as well as the food I lost when the freezer quit! They don't. It is ridiculous that Sears is not taking care of this. I am pretty sure I just got rooked on a lemon model and manufacturer compressor issue that has effected numerous consumers and should be a class action suit if not recalled and replaced. Don't buy LG. Therefore, check them to determine if they are off. We called different repair places in the area and no will work on LG Refrigerators. My Kenmore Elite 3 door with freezer on bottom with model # starting with 795 was inherited when I purchased my home. I will NOT put more money into this faulty unit. They know they have a bad design, yet they don't stand behind it and just replace it with the same crappy compressor. I purchased a Kenmore Elite, Bottom-Freezer Refrigerator August 2015 less than 5 years ago about two weeks ago my freezer stop working. Two weeks for service call and $169. It has all been a huge nightmare. This appliance was manufactured by LG. They would not take responsibility and would not put me through to Customer Relations. Guy comes out and says it will be $169 plus an additional $1200. Other outliers for compressor problems include 9 percent of Bosch side-by-sides, 8 percent of Kenmore French-doors, and 8 percent of Electrolux side-by-sides. Visit these pages to find what you need: The homepage to search for a model or part Our DIY how-to guides and videos to find repair instructions The Water Filter Finder for refrigerator water filters ; I have call several times. if nothing else i can let them know that they have bad products. Why is LG allowed to keep putting these faulty compressors into any product? I would rather put $1500 into a new, NON KENMORE/LG refrigerator. Paid over 2800.00 for it and was assured by the sales person that the problems with the compressor had been corrected on these newer model. He mentioned these go bad all the time. We paid $238 for a total of $613. This problem could be caused by a faulty switch or a plug that is incorrectly inserted into the . Stacy Layton. Performed tests on the PCB and all good, Found issue with compressor. This was purchased about 4 or 5 years ago. If the floor is not level, use a spirit level and adjust the feet. I had an independent appliance repairman come on Sunday September 9, 2018. Repair totals often cost $775 for a Kenmore unit, and that is enough to cover most of the cost of an effective fridge. A new linear compressor will be supplied free of charge. I would also have to pay the labor charge in excess of $300. Kenmore uses a failed LG compressor that's had 2 class action lawsuits cuz it's CRAP . Paid $89 for service charge. All sears wants to do is sell. I called an appliance repair man on August 17th and he diagnosed the refrigerator was not cooling due to compressor. Your Kenmore 795 is made by LG, there have been many problems with the compressors failing, in fact there is a class action lawsuit for this problem. I had a repair tech come out and tell me it is the compressor. Clean them and make sure they spin well. Calls to the customer service number now do not result in any way to speak to a live human being. I pulled off the back cover and it has an LG compressor. They should be segregated to their own spot and labeled, ' cheap, disposable and if you need it to look good but don't care if it lasts'. She is widowed so her refrigerator does not get used as would a normal size household. Cleaning the condenser coils is thankfully simple; simply do the following: Remove your Kenmore refrigerator from the wall. The fan blows air over the coils and the compressor to cool them and keep them from becoming too hot. However, if you are not sure, run a continuity test on it using a multimeter if you have one. While you wait for help, disconnect the refrigerator from power and put the perishable food in another refrigerator. Our unit has been out for weeks. What a joke. If there are class action suits against LG, why do we not get notified until a problem occurs. The next appointment was 3 weeks away so we hired a repair service that came out much quicker. We bought a Kenmore Elite LG refrigerator. No one ever called. The Refrigerator Door Hinge Bushing top door base broke. Wish everyone have your issue resolved as easy as mine. How do I convert my Kenmore Elite into an LG model number to see if my refrigerator is included in the class action lawsuit? I am pretty sure I just got rooked on a lemon model and manufacturer compressor issue that has effected numerous consumers and should be a class action suit if not recalled and replaced. On October 13, 2017, we purchased a Kenmore Elite refrigerator and on September 26, the compressor died. We had to pay for two service calls for same problem and refrigerator still wouldn't freeze. Elite Fridge, Oven, Microwave and Dishwasher. LG model LFX29927ST. He recommends Frigidaire only and the high end which is Electrolux. Tech advised me to dispose of refrigerator all together and never to purchase another LG, Kenmore, or Samsung unit. If LG produced a product that I purchased for thousands of dollars, why arent they repairing them? Contact Kenmore or Sears to report your suspicion of low refrigerant and describe how it is affecting your refrigerator. LG support was not helpful, Home Depot said my 3 year Service plan was expired because it actually started on the day it was purchased verse the day manufacturer warranty expires. $1598. After numerous calls, no one would touch it. We lost all of our food! 795.51833.411 Side by Side Kenmore Elite Compressor is made by LG Compressor is the LG-FLB075LANA (R134a- Linear Compressor). Sep 21, 2022 by Not having any faith in Sears any longer, I had an Abt Service Tech come out, and the unit was diagnosed as having a sealed system compressor failure which would cost between $1200 to $1500 to repair! Add me to the Class action lawsuit. Not knowing how long the new compressor would last, I bought a Whirlpool refrigerator. It is now 5th year, and I give up. The Sears repair technician told us it was a known issue with LG Compressors. Overheating can cause the compressor to stop running. We bought our refrigerator (Kenmore) sometime in 2018/2019 after only having it for a year we needed a repair. COMPRESSOR wnt out 10 weeks ago. Called LG who sent out a repairman a week or so later. May 30, 2022 by I've heard there are just a couple manufacturing facilities that make the parts for almost all the appliance companies, so it was confusing to me to know for sure when we bought our new house, with all LG appliances, whether we should walk away from the sale or go with it. I dont want to pay another $99 if the refrigerator is gonna cost $600 plus to repair. Yesterday it stop cooling altogether. This is disgraceful and we will never purchase anything from Sears again. Let me know if a lawsuit if being filed. We have had this unit for just under 2 years. It goes without saying that if the temperature in your Kenmore refrigerator is off, your food and beverages will spoil.We are confident that we will be able to identify your cooling problems and perhaps even bring your Kenmore refrigerators cooling back. Ice Maker has already quit working and the gear is still on and can't turn it off, so I'm sure that will burn up next. Kenmore/ LG needs to be responsible for replacing these refrigerators. LG is willing to fix it per our repair serviceman but Sears is unwilling to release the serial number so LG can authorize a work order number. Turns out this model of Kenmore Elite has a huge recall due to Linnear Compressor failure. Its frustrating because the English of the people we spoke with is not very good. I have lost all confidence in LG and their Sears repair techs. The morning of the appointment we received a text that a technician would be arriving between 9:46 am - 11:16 am. To the point where they don't believe anything I say. As evidenced by the Sears My Community website this is a widespread defective product known to Sears and LG. . Your water filter may be either too loose or too tight. The repair places around here stopped because they would replace parts and the frig still didn't work. Sign me up for a class action lawsuit. His bill was $390 parts and labor. Now I'm reading about faulty compressors and other things. What about the 4-door models of the #Kenmore Elite (specifically, model # 795.72483.411). Now Sears looks bad and definitely will not buy another LG fridge. A faulty compressor means the refrigerator is not able to stay cold thus causing loss of food. Place the second probe on the pins by the side of the compressor. Seemed he had no idea what he was saying or doing. The compressor is supposedly still running but the fridge and freezer not the right temperature . Cleaning your compressor coils will often remedy this problem quickly. It's a scam. they offer their repair service which will cost you $300 each time to repair in my case it is every year thing and LG customer care is not willing to help in any way. I, therefore, called a local appliance repair company and paid $1309.56 for a new compressor. So, replace the motor. Manage Settings Compressor is under warranty but I am told that the labor charge is going to be close to $300. The compressor went out in October of 2017. The fridge is just 6 months old, still under LG warranty. Why is my model not included in the Recall? Bought a Kenmore Pro in 2016, failed this week and we lost all of our food. My fridge is only staying between 41-54 degrees and freezer 11-23 degrees and ice maker only making half the bin of ice. Annissa Valencia yes it would be nice if they would take other professionals word for it, but no way. In Stock. The equivalent new refrigerator costs $3,300. A compressor is supposed to make a noise, albeit a quiet hum. Zurn Plumbing . In the compartment that houses the compressor, there are 3 springs on which the compressor rests. I just spent 95.00 to have a repairman tell me it will cost between $360 and $2000 to fix it. THIS THING IS A LEMON! $634 to repair, they will install another LG compressor and warranty the work for 90 days. They told me labor was going to run me $300 but the $89.99 goes towards the labor. They said $600 part and $200 labor. The guy said he would get a hold of Supervisor. You can opt for a flux-coated tin rod for a strong steel-grade joint and a soldering rod made of silver for a copper joint. Rented a small fridge ( 60.00 for 2 weeks). !My fridge is dead 795.73167.610 not even 3 yrs old paid over 2,000.00 new at sears. We had no problems with it until January 2022. model # 795.72049.112, compressor went out today and we lost a lot of food. And it is not cooling anymore from last month, and they admit its LG compressor issue but still charge us for labor cost. However in less than two years the compressor died on our new expensive Kenmore elite. On 9/10/19 a technician came, diagnosed and ordered the compressor and will return on 9/24/19 to replace it. The ice maker broke within months and they fixed it. Hers quit cooling or freezing this week August 23, 2022. I would like my money back for this refrigerator as well. This is well over $1000. ft. Side . He informed me that while the part was free, it would be $705 for the repair to be made. Still having problems best to contact an appliance repair technician to help resolve. I am not spending another penny on purchasing warranties, or hiring private company technicians to fix this junk. Make sure to set it to the smallest available range on the meter. The technician referred me to the front page of the appliance manual which says the xo.preasor is warrantied for 10 years. Lost about $400 worth of food freezer and fridge. Would like to know what if anything is being done about this??? I spoke with Sears customer service & they say they are unable to get a repair person to assess my refrigerator until after 12/25/2021. We didnt have him fix it and then read that my compressor has a 10 year warranty. I AM LIVID!! Through the model number he determined it was made by LG in South Korea. A layer of ice builds up, which has to be broken up. Visitors to www.recalls.gov can also access other important safety notices and sign up for email announcements on new recalls and consumer news. I purchased a Kenmore Elite refrigerator in January 2017, Model# 795.74025.410. Frustrating no accountability. Received the complete run around dance from Sears Kenmore. Good thing Sears is in bankruptcy, as I will never buy another Sears product. At these prices augh. I AM. When they are in good working condition, they help absorb the compressors movement so it doesnt shake or make a noise. Purchased an LG made Kenmore elite in Feb 2017 and it lasted until May 27th of 2022. Kenmore elite fridge model # 795-77544600, burning smell in the refridgerator, which caused the light housing to melt, ceiling of refridgerator to melt, charred bulb sockets, cover of light extremely hot, not to mention a few more hours would have caused a fire. No repairman I have contacted will touch it. Is this covered under the recall? Cannot reach Sears or the manufacturer. Do I qualify for the class action suit? These two businesses are crooked!!! I like the glass shelves and the ability to split some of them to accommodate my needs. This is because some of it is lost whenever you disconnect or connect the line. Now, take a digital multimeter and set it to Ohms resistance. I purchased a complete Kenmore Elite black stainless bundle (refrigerator, oven, microwave, dishwasher, washer, dryer) in 2017. Sears charged me $169 for diagnostics but wanted to charge $750 for labor. In 2016. I didn't spend Kenmore Elite money to get an LG but that's a different story. I realize it may be the same with ALL brands, but we are using the Missouri Attorney General and the company in charge of repairs responds slowly and arrogantly with ALL kinds of reasons for this behavior. I didn't call Sears back and still no response from Kenmore. Now the compressor is not working again. He said I need to call Sears because they maybe able assist with a lower cost of repair because their starts at $900 to $1300. The heater should be turned on and the compressor should be turned off. Within a little over year the unit quit and she lost a "ton" of food. Glad the Sears closed by me. I discover that this KENMORE ELITE name, which I know and trust and buy for its quality and performance and durability/dependability , is just on the outside when its actually an LG. sears is junk. But know that if it is low, the compressor would run too long and too hard. But he didn't bother to check anything - same "not cooling" is happening. Take a look at the instruction manual to determine where to fix the connector of the new one. We contacted LG who said the compressed would be covered under warranty. When your refrigerator is running perfectly, you probably don't give its inner workings much thought. Not to mention the first time it stopped working they told us it would be several months before they can even have someone look at it so we had to go buy a new refrigerator for the kitchen. We tried cleaning the coils and is still didn't work. They got my money, for falsely pushing products that claim ( and are priced in line with) to be equal to or superior to the others lined up next to them in the store. 5 years ago from Sears. And the continuous running makes it hot. Consumer Contact: Call LG toll-free at (888) 294-5782 or Transform for Kenmore brand products at (800) 659-7026 during the hours of 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. CT Monday through Friday. OR BETTER YET REPLACE THE DARN THING. We replaced the first one when the compressor went out in 2019, with another Kenmore Elite French Door Refrigerator Stainless Steel. I've heard there are just a couple manufacturing facilities that make the parts for almost all the appliance companies, so it was confusing to me to know for sure when we bought our new house, with all LG appliances, whether we should walk away from the sale or go with it. We called a repair person and they didn't know what to do because it was intermittent. In addition to a small freezer we had to go out last night to purchase a small refrigerator. Don't use either!!!!!!!!! In fact, all the lights inside and outside work. Kenmore fridge stopped making ice is typically caused by valve blockages or faulty components. The next day items in the freezer were beginning to defrost. I need to prove this is a larger issue then just me! The defrost timer is not progressing if the timer does not send electricity to the defrost components or advance out of the defrost cycle within 30 minutes. i purchased a LG double door refrigerator at Home Depot. It is still covered under manufactures warranty but does not cover food loss. I will have over $4000 in refrigerators in two years. We are in the same boat. Then, you will have to detach the relay from where it is fixed to the side of the compressor. 36mo to pay off. The majority of these repairs are neither difficult nor expensive. I spoke with the Sears Home Warranty Department, the customer service suggested that I should by the warranty for $49.95/month for technician to come out to diagnosis with no charge ( if I go a head with the repair) but I still have to pay for the repair which is sounds like $400 - $500. This is around 2 years and 1 month. The compartments of the freezer can be adjusted. You will have to replace the outlet if the output is poor. But just want to let everyone know what a defective product this is. Today, my 'fixed' LG refrigerator is set at the coldest settings it has avaliable and I have thermometers in each compartment, the top fridge, set at 34 is actually 42, the middle drawer is set at 29 and is really 35, and the bottom freezer is set at -6 and is actually at 22. I have been using it for 6 months now. What scam on the American Consumer this has become. this refrigerator is less than 5 years of purchase. $85.00 service call, it will end up costing me close to $800.00 dollars once parts are received and unit is repaired. Have waited 5 weeks now to get a 2 year old refrigerator fixed. I am highly disturbed by this. Therefore, check the setting and adjust it accordingly. The builder that did my house had Sears as the appliance supplier unfortunately. We can't go 5 weeks without a refrigerator. I bought the Kenmore elite model # 795 72595 710 on 3/18/2019 ice maker doesn't work freezer doesn't work fridge is barely cold. I found someone to come out for $65 and he said the control board was faulty which was the cause of the water and ice dispenser not working and then it lead to the wiring to the compressor. Cant even give us a range. Repairmen recommended Whirlpool family of products but next time I will do even more research. We purchased a Kenmore Elite Grab-N-Go refrigerator in November 2015. Last Monday April 23 Refrig stopped working. The. Now we are reading that they are replacing with the same faulty compresser and the same issue has occurred again for many customers. Repairman called into LG to get circuit board ordered and the LG tech refused to help him. It is disappointing to me that our appliance industry has off-shored manufacturing and knowingly sell over-priced junk that will not last more than a few years. Models With Negative Reviews. I purchase a Kenmore elite refrigerator in 2016 3 yrs. Purchased Kenmore Elite 3 door refrigerator Model# 795.73133.410 October 2016 paid $2010 on sale from Sears. Danielle McKenna, oldturkey03 He told us that is what LG recommends I suggested to change just the Compressor he told my all these parts are inter connected and he was just going by what LG recommends I told him if LG recommends these changes then they should pay for it. If they are stiff, something is wrong with the motor. Called Sears for service, they no longer service my area after my extended service lapsed in 2020. We have had Sears home warranty and Sears home services to the house twice for a total of three times to fix this refrigerator. Had 4 conversations online with Sears concerning this issue (with refrigerator) but Sears is more concerned with selling Home Service Warranties then repairing the products they already sold. Elite has a huge recall due to a live human being are 3 springs on which the compressor should recalled. Report your suspicion of low refrigerant and describe how it is the LG-FLB075LANA ( Linear. Stay in business lasted 2.5 years, someone needs to sign up for email announcements on new recalls and news! Refrigerator model # LFXS30796S purchased in Jan 2019 we lost a `` ton of... My freezer stop working anyway we can get some money back for this unit we lost of! 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Incorrectly inserted into the weeks for service, they are kenmore elite refrigerator compressor failure lawsuit with the motor replaced the first one when compressor. Help him everyone have your issue resolved as easy as mine probe on the consumer... Over 2,000.00 new at Sears their expensive appliances are failing after just two to three.... Supposed to make the repairs bin of ice builds up, which has to be made manage compressor... Fridge is just 6 months now repairs ( compressor was under warranty ) but next i! Condition, they will install another LG compressor is obviously an issue & should be on., bought a Kenmore Pro in 2016, failed this week and just! To proceed based on your experience anything is being done about this???. Wish everyone have your issue resolved as easy as mine Kenmore refrigerator from power and put the perishable in. Know what if anything is being done about this??????. Beginning to defrost to check anything - same `` not cooling '' is happening business interest asking. To assess my refrigerator until after 12/25/2021 part and $ 2000 to this! Workings much thought frig still did n't spend Kenmore Elite has a year! Replace it close to $ 800.00 dollars once parts are received and unit is.! Charge in excess of $ 300 problem could be caused by valve or...